Ross Gianfortune
This is GovExec Daily, where we bring you the federal stories that really matter.  It's April 6, 2021 . I’m Ross Gianfortune.

Ross Gianfortune

Before the pandemic changed the course of history, former president Donald Trump’s presidency potentially was going to be defined by his first impeachment. In 2019, a whistleblower’s complaint about the president's dealings with Ukraine prompted the inquiry that became Trump's first impeachment trial.

By statute, whistleblowers are supposed to be protected against retaliation by their superiors, but that happens far more in theory than it does in reality. Trump’s impeachment and presidency may be outliers for the high-profile whistleblowers who faced consequences during the impeachment ordeal and the pandemic, but defenders of others who consider themselves whistleblowers  like Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden can point to years of retaliation.

Most whistleblowers, however, are not particularly high-profile. Most are more likely to face retaliation from their direct superiors just for uncovering waste, fraud or abuse. Last week, more than 200 groups led by the Government Accountability Project called on the White House and Congress to enact stronger whistleblower protection rules. In a letter, the groups emphasized the important role whistleblowers play in holding the government accountable, especially during the historic response to pandemic.

Irvin McCullough is a National Security Analyst at the Government Accountability Project. He’ll join me next to talk about the letter and the state of whistleblower rights a few months into the President Joe Biden’s administration.

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Ross Gianfortune
Last week, more than 200 groups called on President Biden and congressional leadership to enact stronger whistleblower protection laws, especially to ensure that the government is fairly spending trillions of dollars in pandemic relief funding. The groups, led by the Government Accountability Project, argue that the current whistleblower protections are outdated and insufficient to protect individuals who disclose wrongdoing in the federal government.

Irvin McCullough is a National Security Analyst at the Government Accountability Project. He joins me now to discuss the letter and the state of whistleblower rights.

Welcome to the show

Irvin McCullough  
Thanks so much for having me Ross, it's great to be here.

Ross Gianfortune
So what does this letter call for specifically and, you know, What do you and these, you know these hundreds of groups, want to see? 

Irvin McCullough
  We want to see three crucial reforms to the whistleblowing system. And that's for different categories of employees. So I'll start talking about the reforms we're seeking for the federal workforce for the Federal whistleblowing system, then I'll move quickly into two of our other priorities which are law enforcement whistleblowers and recipients of the COVID-19 stimulus funds, ensuring that essential workers and other stimulus recipients have best practice whistleblowing rights to challenge waste, fraud, abuse, and so for the federal workforce, we're seeking the right to due process right now, federal whistleblowers who face retaliation usually seek justice from the Merit Systems Protection Board, the MSPB as your listeners know is a as a judicial forum created to protect the federal Merit Systems from political interference and other prohibited personnel practices, unlike private sector whistleblowers, or whistleblowers for many state and local governments whistleblowers in the federal workforce are not afforded the right the court. So we're asking Congress to legislate for whistleblowers a right to jury trials they kick out that allow them to pursue their cases through the courts are also seeking the right to temporary relief. Most unemployed whistleblowers can't afford court. And even if they're given court access when you're broke, it's hard to enforce your rights, simply because you can't afford to. And these cases last a long time. I've heard of one whistleblower who won her case three separate times at the MSPB, and she's still in fighting that retaliation for about 12 or 13 years. It's like if a patient dies while the best heart surgeon in the world is on their way to heal them. The patient still dead. Doesn't matter how effective or good that heart surgeon is. And that's why we're asking for whistleblowers to be granted the right to temporary relief. We're also seeking the right to challenge retaliatory investigations. All the corporate whistleblower laws and even the military whistleblowing Protection Act that covers servicemembers, protect against retaliatory investigations. The first reaction to a whistleblowing disclosure for some managers is to retaliate. And as one retaliatory tactic managers like to find dirt on the whistleblower, so they'll open up investigations into say workers Time and Attendance or some other minor personnel issue, and under the current law, whistleblowers cannot defend themselves, until the agency acts on the results of that investigation, but agencies can, and many times do keep these investigations open for years, which shills would be whistleblowers from ever speaking out. I mean all you need is one good bully to create absolute terror and completely chill, reporting of misconduct. And then we're also seeking reforms to the whistleblowing system for law enforcement officers, because many criminal justice reforms that are being considered by Congress right now are run into a blue wall of silence that unwritten code where some police officers, protect their colleagues over protecting the public interest and refused to step forward and disclose abuses are seeking protection for as I mentioned, recipients of the COVID stimulus package monies $6 trillion is a lot of money. And unfortunately a lot of that money is going to be lost to waste, fraud and abuse. Back in 2009, inspectors general credited the whistleblowing safeguards in that stimulus package for saving the federal government millions if not billions of dollars, and that was only for a 600 or $700 billion stimulus package, we're talking about exponentially more money, that does not include the whistleblowing safeguards so we're afraid a lot of money might go down the drain. These three principles of legislation these protect the federal workforce to protect law enforcement officers, and to protect the integrity of the stimulus. Those are the principles that 265 groups have advocated for in this letter to Congress and to the president, timing wise,

Ross Gianfortune 
you know that's endemic is in its 15th month, approximately how much of the timing of this letter centers on the pandemic and, ultimately, my mind goes to, you know, a high profile whistleblower like Dr Rick break during the Trump administration, who's now back as a job but, you know, do you see it, that the health agencies to protect whistleblowers, that the small business administration that has let's say had its problems, over the last, few months?

Irvin McCullough
it certainly is important and timely to protect whistleblowers across the federal workforce. Beyond HHS CDC and the Small Business Administration. The every single agency has been impacted by this pandemic. And currently, the Merit Systems Protection Board faces a 3000 case backlog. It's somewhat hard to get through that backlog during a pandemic, and because it's been both continued and exacerbated by the pandemic whistleblowers are having justice significantly delayed. And because there are more whistleblowers, stepping up from the different agencies, the pandemic, certainly affected the timing of this, there's an emergency, we need emergency whistleblowing right, as my colleague Senator Feinstein our deputy, international director was certainly say, and I said before, in the COVID-19 whistleblowing Protection Act, Getting away from the federal workforce and toward the private sector, again, is directly late related to the pandemic. These are firms that have received money and a lot of these firms have already received monies it's already been doled out. Currently there are workers who may witness waste fraud or abuse or violations of laws rules and regulations and the handling of these monies, and we're not so sure that every single one of them has best practice rights, and in fact many of them do not have whistleblowing protections whatsoever if they were to speak up about the waste, fraud and abuse, that they may witness, With this, these stimulus money's. So, in terms of the timeliness with respect to the pandemic in the federal workforce. We've seen a lot of problems being actually exacerbated in the huge amounts of stimulus we've seen different instances of waste, fraud and abuse. This could not be more timely this could not be more urgent.

Ross Gianfortune
The 2009 stimulus actions taken by the Obama administration did involve a fair amount of oversight, including the now President's role in that oversight list of all rights were part of that. How does that play to you about any coming action onto the White House does it give you any confidence about the by the administration's treatment or amenability to whistleblower rights, as compared to the Trump and Obama administrations.

Irvin McCullough 
It does give me some confidence. The most confidence inspiring part of this I think is the fact that the original host sponsor co author of de COVID-19 Whistleblower Protection Act was then Senator Kamala Harris, who is also in the administration now that. So we're hopeful that recognizing the precedent for these rights back in 2009 were really it was Republicans back in 2009, who had fought so vigorously to enact anti fraud measures into the stimulus package, and part of this anti fraud measures were a whistleblower provision that essentially said, A, we're giving out a lot of money here, if you work for a company receiving these federal monies, then you have best practice for supporting protections, and here's what that means, it means you can make disclosures to these protected audiences, a wide array of audiences means that you have some of the best defenses possible in terms of anti retaliation protections, having those kinds of comforts encourages a lot of whistleblowers to come forward and as a result of that, that allows the federal government, through inspectors general or the Department of Justice, and other prosecutors spotlight, waste, fraud and abuse to actually go and see how much money is being lost, and to recover as much of that money as possible. So because vice president Harris was vital in the introduction of this legislation, and given President Biden's role in the 2019 realist actions. I am hopeful and optimistic that they will support this legislation which has been recently introduced by Congresswoman Jackie Speier, Congressman Jamie Raskin, and Senator Elizabeth Warren.

Ross Gianfortune
So let's talk about this going forward a little bit, I mean we last spoke at the end of last year right before a week before I think the attack on the capital, and bus, about three weeks before the Biden administration took office, you know, what is your perspective, then versus now. How do they compare?

Irvin McCullough  
Well, when we talked last, it was about a warning that we sent to a number of agencies, alerting them that their employees had certain rights and that it was their duty to remind their employees about their rights and specifically that was the right to blow the whistle, unencumbered from a gag order restrictions placed on those workers. I think that the environment has changed quite a bit. You have a new president, who comes out and commits to certain ideals of transparency to integrity to restoring the federal workforce, and restoration Federal workforce that's something a lot of federal workers have heard before, and sometimes get bit tired of hearing, they don't always see action. And we're hearing good words, we're seeing the right symbols. We're hoping to experience the action soon. And I think the action looks like promoting these different pieces of legislation that these 265 groups have supported that 86% of the American public according to the Marist poll from last fall has supported, which is strengthening whistleblowing protections for federal workers, and also for private sector employees through the COVID-19 was for Protection Act, and for law enforcement officers across the country. This President has a lot of momentum. He has a lot of power and ability to get things done. The Congress is a bit of a partisan deadlock, you know 5050 In the Senate, but there's one issue that has enjoyed bipartisan support for decades if not centuries. And that is disappointing. That's because waste is a government, government waste is an issue that directly affects American taxpayers, the constituents of a lot of members but particularly pet issue of many different Republican members who hate to see government over overreach who hate to see government waste and who want efficiency in Federal management of federal spending. And for those folks who also. I believe are realizing now that this is a Democratic administration. And so, whistleblowers from the administration would be helpful as they pursue their oversight agenda for Republicans, there's, there are many, many reasons to support whistleblowing reform. On the Democratic side, the exact reasons that we saw in the last administration, why we have the systems that we've built over the past centuries and decades, to ensure that the federal government remains accountable to ensure that they spotlight waste, fraud and abuse, and put a stop to it, direct these actions whenever they see that I'm optimistic that because of the bipartisan support behind these ideals behind whistleblowing, that we'll be able to catch up to the rest of the world that President Biden will probably take us there. By supporting these kinds of legislation, but at the same time, any administration, is the administration and power in whistleblowers and whistleblowing at its very core challenges, the power structure. It's this idea that people in power are not angels, like we all envisioned them to be and want them to be, they're human, they make mistakes sometimes mal intent, and those mistakes, needs to be identified and corrected for us to live in a functioning government and a functioning society.

Ross Gianfortune
I know we've had some people from all ranges of the government spectrum I think to a certain extent, particularly from the National Taxpayers Union which is not by any stretch of progressive group sort of talking in the same way in the sense that there's even more evidence for transparency and whistleblowers, very much a part of that and, you know, I hope we can see more meaningful reform in that space and I'm sure the Government Accountability Project will be a part of that and as such, thanks so much for being on the show with us.

Irvin McCullough  
 Thanks so much for having me.

Ross Gianfortune
Thanks for listening to GovExec Daily. Our show was produced by Adam Butler and hosted by me, Ross Gianfortune. We want to thank Irvin McCullough of the Government Accountability Project for joining the program. Our music is the song “Signals” by Catfish Dancing. Be sure to rate, review and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can email us any feedback at podcast @ govexec.com or hit us on Twitter @ Govexec.  

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